19820910 Srimad-Bhagavatam.3.4.33 Talk On Navadvipa Glories @ Philadelphia, USA

The following is a class given H.H. Jayapataka Swami Maharaja on September 10th ,1982 in Philadelphia, Pensylvania. The class begins with a reading from the Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 3, Chapter 4, Text 33.

SB 3.4.33

viduro ’py uddhavāc chrutvā
 kṛṣṇasya paramātmanaḥ
krīḍayopātta-dehasya
 karmāṇi ślāghitāni ca

Translation: Vidura also heard from Uddhava about the appearance and disappearance of Lord Kṛṣṇa, the Super soul, in the mortal world, which is a subject matter sought after with great perseverance by the great sages.

Purport: The subject matter of the appearance and disappearance of the Supersoul, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, is a mystery even for the great sages. The word paramātmanaḥ is significant in this verse. An ordinary living being is generally called the ātmā, but Lord Kṛṣṇa is never an ordinary living being because He is paramātmā, the Supersoul. Yet His appearance as one of the human beings and His disappearance again from the mortal world are subject matters for the research workers who execute research work with great perseverance. Such subject matters are certainly of increasing interest because the researchers have to search out the transcendental abode of the Lord, which He enters after finishing His pastimes in the mortal world. But even the great sages have no information that beyond the material sky is the spiritual sky where Śrī Kṛṣṇa eternally resides with His associates, although at the same time He exhibits His pastimes in the mortal world in all the universes one after another. This fact is confirmed in Brahma-saṁhitā (5.37): goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ. “The Lord, by His inconceivable potency, resides in His eternal abode, Goloka, yet at the same time, as the Supersoul, He is present everywhere — in both the spiritual and material skies — by His multi varieties of manifestation.” Therefore His appearance and disappearance are simultaneously going on, and no one can say definitely which of them the beginning is and which is the end. His eternal pastimes have no beginning or end, and one has to learn of them from the pure devotee only and not waste valuable time in so-called research work. Thus ends the Bhaktivedanta purport of text 33, chapter four, canto 3 of the Srimad Bhagavatam in the matter Vidura Approaches Maitreya spoken by Sukadeva Goswami to king Parikshit.

It's quiet interesting to know how Srila Prabhupada begins the purport, by saying that the appearance and disappearance of Krsna are subject matters for research workers, who execute research work with great perseverance. He also goes on to say that these subjects are of increasing interest to the research workers and …because the research workers have to search out the transcendental abode, where the Lord goes to after the completion of the pastimes, but then in the very end of the purport, Prabhupada says that the Lord's eternal pastimes have no beginning or end and one has to learn of them from the pure devotees only and waste valuable time in so called research work. That...In other words, someone who wants to research about the Lord... Actually the result of that sincere research will be that it is beyond research. So rather than waste valuable time to come to that conclusion, better to go directly to the pure devotees who have got information from Krsna himself. And get the information from those pure devotees, so that all their questions can be answered without any waste of time.

This is the bona fide method, the other interesting point is how these pastimes have no beginning or end. I was reminded when I said that no one can say definitely which universe Krsna comes in first. So where’s the exact beginning or the end of it? There is a banyan tree in Howrah, just across the river from Calcutta, which they claim is the biggest banyan tree in the world, it has some ten thousand of…or some incredible number of trunks. You know how banyan tree sets down roots form the branch and those roots, once they hit the ground, they also grow into trunks.

So this is spread over now something like.. I think it's about two and a half hectares which is, say about 6 to 10 acres of land and it's all one tree. So they’ve offered a ten-thousand-rupee reward for anyone who can discover the original trunk; there are hundreds and hundreds of trunks, and which is the original one and which... and the other ones are the roots; only one can be the original trunk. So if you find the original one, you will get ten thousand rupees or twenty thousand, like that. They might’ve even raised it recently. But upto now, no one has been able to figure out which one is the original ; if the original one is even still there anymore.

So, in the same way this reminded me that, Lord Krsna’s pastimes, since they are going on since the eternal..eternally, so how can one say, “ where is the original universe? Where is the end of His pastimes,” as this is going on. So, they can’t even find out where is original tree trunk in the banyan tree. How are they going to find out where is the original pastimes of Krsna? Therefore they are described as Nithya Lila; They're eternal pastimes and they are going on continuously.

At this moment, Krsna is killing Putana..Krsna is killing Agasura..Delivering agasura this tme... All the different pastimes... One place to another they are going on. Just as in one universe they’re beginning, in the next universe another pastime is completing. Just like, right now, here in Philadelphia, it's say 8:00 and then you go to the next time zone, there its 7:00 O' clock; gradually as it goes to 9 O'clock here, it goes to 8 O' clock there. In the same way Lord Krsna’s pastime is going from universe to universe. As his Balya pastime is completing and going to pouganda, in the next universe its going from…into his Balya Lila from his birth pastime. And this way the pastimes are continuously going on, and in one place to another you can always find his pastimes. But it's not necessarily the next universe; there may be any other unlimited billions and trillions of universes in this material sky. One to place to another his pastimes are going(on).

There are so many universes that he can keep his pastimes manifest even in the material world at all times. That means that right at this moment, even though Krsna’s pastimes are not manifest in this universe, but if you die in Krsna consciousness, you can be transferred to that universe where Krsna’s pastimes are just going on now and then you can be born there and participate in Krsna’s pastimes in this material world. Srila Prabhupada explained that that is generally how one is transferred to the spiritual sky, is one first takes part in the Lord's pastimes, as they are being performed in one of the universes in the material world. And then from there, after having joined the pastimes of the lord while he is performing them in this material world, then one goes back to the spiritual sky.

Of course wherever the Lord’s pastimes are, at that time that atmosphere is completely spiritualized; so there is no difference at that time from being in the spiritual or material sky in any real feeling of the devotee. In the same way, if we consider the holy Dham, the holy Dhams of the Lord are also transcendental realms. They are extensions or replicas of the spiritual world manifest in this material world.

Apparently they are here, but actually they are under the control of the spiritual sky; they are under the control of yoga maya. Just like in the sashtras it describes that Vrindavan and Mayapur, these are non-different holy Dhams. Vrindavan is Lord Krsna’s appearance or pastime place, and Navadvip is the pastime place and appearance place both of Lord Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So everthing that’s in vrindavan you also find there in Navadvip. Also all of the holy dhams also take their appearance in both these holy places. So Navadvipa is described as having a dimension of 16 croshas and around, that is described, just as a lotus, if you have a lotus bud, as the lotus bud opens and opens into the full blooming lotus flower, then you’ll notice that in the center of the lotus flower there is an inner flower and in the center of that there is a yellow platform.

So generally the inner flower is called the corona and the external flower is called the corolla. As far as I can understand from English, that’s what they call it in English, there is different name in Sanskrit , papri or other. So The center portion with its central flowers its described as Navadvip dham. The very center with that raised platform is the Navadvip Dham known as Antardvipa. On eight sides, like eight lotus petals coming out from the Antardvip, they're the other nine islands. Those nine islands are made through Navadvip Dham are coming the Ganges, the Jamuna, the Saraswati, and those are being subdivided by 16 different rivers that have all manifested there in different forms like kaveri, sindhu, the Brahmaputra, etc. Thamiraparani, gomati...

So In this way, these nine islands are created; so the nine islands, each of them signifies one of the practices of devotional service : Hearing, chanting, remembering bowing down and praying different pastime... the central island itself is the island of atma nivedanam or compete self-surrender. So around that central Navadvip Dham there is a greater spiritual domain, which is non-different form the Vaikunta loka.

The central portion is just like Golok vrindavan. The external portion is known as gaura mandala bhumi that “ gaura-mandala-bhumi, jeba jane cintamani,tara hoy braja-bhume bas.” Narottam das thakur said that one who knows that Gaur mandala bhumi is “chintami dham,” that person is always residing in Vrindavan. So gaura mandala bhumi is also just part of the transcendental realm and that has a diameter of 21 yojanas, not a diameter, but a circumference of 21yojanas or about a 158 miles per yojana. So, in this way, the holy dham expands. So that area, which is described in the various scriptures in Mayapur and Vrindavan is under the Yoga Maya potency; it's not under the potency of Maha Maya. Although it's residing in the Maha Maya dominion apparently, that's superficial. In reality, those particular areas are under the spiritual potency; for anyone who knows the relationship with Krsna or Lord Caitanya as an eternal servant who goes there, they actually achieve actually unlimited transcendental bliss and realization while being in the holy dham.

So we gave the example that sometimes, recently about 2 years ago, there was a big crisis where the Iranians had conquered or captured the American embassy in Iran. at that time America was claiming that this was an attack against their country according to international agreement, that the Embassy does not form part of the Iranian country, that it's under the dominion of America, being Consulate General or an Embassy. So in the same way as now in the present international law, an Embassy is directly considered the part of that country as well as ships on the sea. So in the same way, the holy dham ( in a similar way rather) is directly under the spiritual potency. Even though it’s residing in the material world, it's management and transcendental reality is all under the spiritual potency. So Lord Krsna’s pastimes are also eternally going on in this holy dham. Adyapiha Lila koren gouro rai kono kono bhagyavan dekhi bare pai... that the pastimes of Lord Krsna are going on continuously and those who are highly fortunate, through devotional service, they are able to witness these pastimes, even today.

So, that way, BhaktiVinod Thakura of course, he was able to witness the pastimes of Lord Caitanya there. Lord Nityananda went to Jiva goswami; they were able to witness the pastimes; pastimes are going on even today. You can witness the pastimes going on in vrindavan and navadvip if you get their causeless mercy. Sometimes devotees witness them through their dreams. Sometimes devotees witness them while going into trance, meditation and they see the pastimes. And sometimes devotees just with their own vision and are able to see the transcendental pastimes in the holy dhams. So we cannot underestimate the potency of the Lord's holy name, of the Lord's holy dhams, of the Lord’s transcendental pastimes – naam , dham and Lila.

Simply to meditate, to think about, to hear about or to glorify has unlimited potency for purifying the conditioned souls, because its just to just lock us into our permanent relationship with the Lord. One time Srila Prabhupad very emphatically said that “If you want to love Krsna the love His loved ones. He gave the simple example that in the west they say “If you want to love me, love my dog.” If you want to love Krsna then you have to also love those whom Krsna loves. He has His cows, he has His friends he Has His parents. Sometimes in India you get these mayavadis who say, “No, no. We just want Krsna in the clouds. We don’t accept that. We do not want that. Krsna with His complete entourage... We cannot have Krsna alone. That is a Mayavadi idea; Krsna is never alone.

Srila Prabhupada in writing the books, when he would have the artist draw, he would never accept any picture of Krsna alone, there had to be a devotee or a cow or peacock or deer or something; He’s never alone, He is always accompanied by so many devotees. So many associates sango pangastra parshadam. The Lord doesn’t come alone. So you want to love Krsna, you can imagine how is it possible. “Krsna I like you, but I don’t like all those cows and every thing. I Just want you with out the cows and the cowherds and all those village people. So then, you know, none of these you know sophisticated Dvaraka vasis. I just want you. Why Krsna will go to that person? If you want Krsna you have to take him either with the Brajvasis or the Mathuravasis or the Dvarakavasis. You don’t get Krsna alone anywhere; in fact, it's quite offensive. Krsna means Krsna with pastimes, with qualities, with devotees, with place of residence-- not Krsna in the sky.

Gurudev(asking a devotee who is near Him) : Isn't there some song... which used to be a popular song, something in the sky?

Devotee : Sky..( inaudible)

Gurudev : Yeah, it's probably...

Devotee : (inaudible response)

Gurudev : eh?

Gurudev : Is in the group...( Gurudev laughs ) It's probably some kind of a relation to someting spiritual in an abstract way. Anyway...

Krsna has all the transcendental qualities, but in his spiritual sky he is not alone; this the researchers can never understand. The researchers, how they will be able to conceive? They won’t even be able to dream about , to get... approach the slightest idea about what is the variety in the spiritual sky. Anyone can speculate non-variety, can speculate non-quality, can speculate impersonalism ; that’s just an opposite-- light to black, person to non-person. But to actually understand what is the variety in the spiritual world... That is very difficult, if not completely impossible, for any researcher to know.

Therefore, one has to understand by descending process of knowledge, by hearing from the superior source, and accepting their version, their description, as authoritative. Of course, was just discussing yesterday with some other scientist, doctors and everyone; that “Well people challenge that this is unscientific.” Of course, they challenge that it's illogical or it's beyond logic; not illogical but alogical or non-logical-- beyond logic to understand these realities. But we have to accept that by definition, it goes beyond logic. So because it goes beyond logic, it doesn't mean it's illogical; it means that it is a transcendental reality, and that has its own higher order logic, which has to be understood by different process than the ordinary manipulation of symbols in this material world. So, to actually know what is the spiritual sky, the real source is Krsna. And it's described here in the Bhagavatam.

It is Desribed in the Bhagavatam, Described by different... Of course, it is described by His incarnation Vyasadeva. He has himself described briefly in the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Brahma has described in the Brahma Samhita. From these various literatures, we start to realize, we can understand what is the nature of the spiritual world that is the chintamani dham! That is not a material place, but it's eternally manifested from eternal and cognizant potencies of the Lord and there Lord is enjoying eternally blissful pastimes in full knowledge. So that’s our original place; that's where we want to go.

Actually, all the people want to be happy in the world; the actual place that they are looking for, that perfect place that they like to create with all their planning commissions, is the spiritual world. But in this material world, they want to create the spiritual world without Krsna. They want eternal life, they want eternal happiness, they want unlimited blissful activities, they want everything to be in harmony-- they want all the things that the spiritual world is, except they don’t want Krsna. They don’t want that there should be the supreme God over them, ultimately enjoying all the activities.

Therefore they cannot create the spiritual world because the spiritual world is dependent upon the transcendental presence of Krsna. But if they simply accept Krsna, then immediately, wherever he is, that becomes the spiritual world. So, all their attempts to create this perfect world without Krsna cannot help but fail. And the easiest way to create the harmony, peace and happiness and the world that they want is to simply bring in Krsna; because He only goes to his spiritual world; so how to bring in Krsna in the Kaliyuga? Krsna doesn't appear in Kaliyuga. He's known as tri-yuga. He comes in three yugas: sathya, tretha and dvapara yugas. How to bring him in kali yuga? That is possible, because he comes as Naama avatar. Naama chinatamani krsnas/ Caitanya rasa vigraha/ purna suddha nitya mukta / abhinnatva nama naminoh. Bring in the holy name of Krsna, that holy name is eternally ever-cognizant all-blissful and non-different from Krsna.

Simply by chanting Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare/Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. Then Srila Prabhupada describes that Kali listens to that name once and then runs away in fear, just flies away. Immediately defeated by the presence of the holy name. So we can take up this chanting of Hare Krsna disseminating the glories of Krsna everywhere, and Kali will be forced to retreat, and the dominion of the spiritual world will increase even in this material sky. Creating the perfect atmosphere for devotees to be actually Krsna conscious and then transfer themselves to the eternal spiritual world from whence one never has to return. Napnuvanti mahatamanas samsiddhim paramam gatah, once going there, one does not have to come back to this material world of birth and death, to material consciousness.

Jayapataka Swami : Are there any questions ? Maharaja(Jayapataka Swami wants to know what the question is)

One Maharaj : In the Brahma Samhita, it states that pure devotees are always seeing Krsna within their hearts, but the in the prayers to the six goswamis it is mentioned that they were always running, looking for Krsna. So how do we understand those two seemingly contradictory states of their consciousness?

Gurudev : In the 11th canto, they are writing in the purports, they give the commentary of the previous acharyas as saying that; the pure devotes are always seeing Krsna in the heart means that they are always qualified to see Krsna. But like the six goswamis, they are always in the mood of seeing Krsna; so in that mood of separation, actually they are seeing Krsna in His Bhava form. But to increase the transcendental pastimes, sometimes Krsna is present and non-present, but the devotees are always being completely absorbed in Krsna, they are always qualified to see Krsna, but that this is just a variety of his pastimes. So it doesn’t mean that, what that purport is saying; like Prahlad or someone was always qualified to see, but sometimes they are seeing sometimes they are not for the sake of increasing the taste of the pastimes. But they are always cognizant of Krsna through the chanting and serving and other ways. That doesn’t (pause).

There may be some devotees always see Krsna without separation. Doesn’t preclude devotees seeing Krsna always or taking dictation from Krsna always. But in some cases as we know that devotees who are qualified to see Krsna don’t see Krsna, So that was the way they described it.

Question by another devotee : Srila Acharyapada, could you explain, or at least tell us some of the glories of Navadvipa dham?

Must be mentioned that Navadvipa dham is non-different from the spiritual sky. The thing was , there’s a special purpose of Navadvip dham that because Lord Krsna only comes in the three ages, in his original, you know, His original form, as the proclaimed personality of Godhead in the sathya, treta and dvapara yugas, but in Kali yuga, He comes in a disguised form, in a covered form, as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, when he comes in the mood of a devotee.

So, the Vedas describe this in countless places but somehow the scholars, even though those are just glaringly present in the Vedas, they didn’t really pick up on it, before Lord Caitanya's coming. It’s just like when we read the Bhagavad gita--at least I have this experience-- and then when I... eventhough I have read it scores of times, when again I pick it up and read it, I will always find one paragraph which seems to be like I never understood it in that way, or even I didn’t see it before or something like that. You get a new type of insight just by reading it again and again.

So, somehow or other by reading, very few scholars could actually understand completely that a Lord’s incarnation was coming in Kali Yuga; when he was coming was mentioned there, but not so prominently that people were not just overly preoccupied with that thought; so, as a result Lord Caitanya, when he came, he actually kept this cover by his Yoga maya form the vision of the pandit, so that he came come as a devotee and not be disturbed with people overly proclaiming Him to be incarnation and then ruining his mood as being a devotee. But Lord Krsna told his followers who knew who he was; he revealed Himself to his followers, who were discreet enough not to disturb his mood of serving as a devotee, eventhough he was the Lord. But after his disappearance, the glories of the holy dham, the glories of his pastimes could be revealed but not you know, that they shouldn’t be revealed to everyone.

During his pastimes, it is a disturbance. He is in the mood of Radharani, in the mood of a devotee and people are coming up and saying, “You are God,” it just would be a distraction for his pastimes. So, after Lord Krsna left, then Lord Nityananda…after Lord Caitanya left, Lord Nityananda saw to it that the six goswamis and other great devotees that Lord Caitanya’s pastimes in his holy dham would be glorified in the Bhaktiratnakar and other literatures that give some insight into the holy dham. And its mentioned that mayapur, Navadvip it's a spiritual sky. And Bhakti Vinod thakur actually, in contemporary time, he did the most to take not only the evidences from the literature written by the direct associates of Caintanya Mahaprabhu.

Navadvip is glorified by Prabodhananda Sarasvati, by the author of Bhakti ratnakar was Kichakravathy, and in addition to that, of course Narottam Das and various other associates and direct disciples of disciples of the associates of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. But Bhaktivinod Thakur not only taking their works but also research the Vedas, research the Upanishads, the Puranas MahaBharata and discovered lot of proofs and references to Navadvip Mayapur Dham, and to the coming of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and he has recorded these in several books. Some of them are known as the Navadvip Mahatmiya, the glories of Navadvip dham and some of his own personal realizations, Navadvip Bhavtarangi, then a collection of the Sanskrit Vedic references that he found- that is also called the glories of Navadvip-- evidence section. And in various literatues as well as in his papers, newspapers, he had this Sajjan Toshani , he had different... four, five papers and periodicals he was coming out with... the Vishnu Priya patrika and others.

So, in those he mentions various references to the holy Dham, as he is researching and finding out; so there, he describes the glories of NavaDvip dham which is now being translated,that Navadvip is unique in this Kaliyuga, because all the other holy dhams decrease in their potency in Kali yuga. People go there and pile on their sinful reactions and the holy dhams or tirthas or pilgrimages places; gradually their effectiveness for purifying the fallen who go there diminish. Unless some great souls goes there or some sacrifices are performed there, those Holy places become overloaded with sinful reactions. So therefore they don’t have the quality of purifying the visitors anymore. But in contrast, Navadvip dham increases in potency, as the kaliyuga progresses. And its potency for purifying the fallen souls in Kaliyuga is immense; it just goes on increasing.

Bhaktivinod thakur gives the example that even if you just study the pastimes of Krsna, you can find that when the demons would come to see Krsna in the holy dham of Vrindavan, they would get killed; but when the demons came to see Lord Caitanya in Navadvip, he would convert them into pure devotees. Give them pure love for God.Jagai madai came and they beat Nithyananda. In the end they were shaved up and chanting Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare/ Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare.

Chand Kazi broke the mrdangas of the kirtan party. In the end he was touched by Lord Caintanya, love of God entered in his heart. Lord Caintanya’s mood is all-encompassing that even the demons come and commit offenses in the holy dham and they end up with love for Krsna... what to speak of the devotees who go there? The devotees of course get the highest benediction. So that way it's said that if a person goes to Vrindavan and commits an offense, Radha Krsna don’t forgive one so easily. Therefore it’s a bit critical that going in the holy dham when one commit offences to the dham or the residents of the holy dhma and then to the preachers of the holy dham; that Dham aparadh stands in the way of one’s progress. Or on the other hand, in Navadvip, one goes there, and even if one is offensive, somehow by the mercy of Lord Caitanya, one can get the mercy and actually get purified from the offenses.

Therefore it's recommended that before visting Vrindavan one should always visit Mayapur Navadvipa dham first. Those who go on their pilgrimage places and first Vrindavan are doing it backwards. To first have to visit Navadvip dham get purified from all offences of the holy name and chanting and then go to Vrndavana. Then one is able to worship Krsna by the mercy of Lord Caitanya. Actually to worship Krsna is on level of pure love, its supposed to be offenseless worship; and Lord Caitanya rather, He is tolerant of people’s offenses and he purifies one from those offenses. So by the mercy of Lord Caitanya we can worship Krsna, Radha Krsna. With out His mercy, Nitai Gaur’s mercy, it's not possible to worship Radha Krsna.

Therefore even in chanting, first we chant Sri Krsna Caitanya Prabhu Nityananda Sri Advaita Gadhadara Srivasadi gaur bhakta vrnda. Then after chanting, then we chant Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare/Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. Of course, even Hare Krsna mahamantra’s mercy is more than the mercy of Vishnu mantra or pure Rama mantra.

It's described that mano rameti rame manorame sahasra naam tulabhis …rama nama varanane; That Lord shiva told Parvati devi addressing her as a beautiful goddess as beautiful-faced goddess, goddess with a beautiful face that He chants the names Rama Rama Rameti, enjoying the transcendental vibration and that to chant this three times the name of Rama, that to chant the names of Rama rather is equal to chanting the names of Vishnu a thousand times.

Then in the Varananda purana it also describes that if you chant three thousand names of Vishnu it is equal to chanting one name of Krsna. So Prabhupada said to chant Lord Chaitnaya’s name is a thousand times more powerful than the name of Krsna. So then a devotee asked, “Well, why don’t we just chant the name of Lord Caitanya?” Prabhupad said, “Well, because Lord Caitanya ordered us to chant Hare Krsna, therefore we chant hare Krsna. But first we chant Lord Chaitnaya’s name. You get the result of chanting Lord Caitnaya’s name when you chant hare Krsna Mahamantra; because that was his instruction, to direct the fallen souls to worship the Lord in his original form as Krsna. So in the same way, the holy dham has got the effect of purifying. In fact, just breathing the air is like performing, you know, so many sacrifices. Just walking over the land is more than (performing) so many ashvamedha yagyas at every step. To reside in the holy dham for three days in Mayapur is like staying for a month in all of the other holy places in India combined.

And actually you cannot put any limit on the potency of Navadvip dham because there one thing you get is pure love of Krsna, while in other places all you can get is liberation. I was once told that even the best seven saptha tirtha or the seven holiest places in India if one does particular worship there like prayag, Badrinath, Badrinayan and few other places then one can get actually liberation. In Kashi, one gets impersonal liberation and in other places one can get actually Krsna. But liberation…Vaikunta depending on these places. But the only place were one actually can easily get pure love for Krsna is in Navadvip.

So therefore it's important for us to realize our permanent relationship with Navadvip dham and we should always feel separation from the holy dham, and if we can physically reside there then do service or due to separation we should reside there in our mind. That way when one is doing sankirtan to Lord Caintanya and feeling eternal relationship with Lord Caintanya then that is also like residing in the holy dham. And therefore the devotee keeps that spiritual connection with the dham and that is my actual home, that is my actual residence. I am just a visitor in this …whatever, that I am actually in Navadvip vrindavan dham, and that I am just here on deputation for preaching. So this way one keeps that connection and thus one never actually lives in the material world, but is always living in the spiritual sky. Hare Krsna.

Gurudev : Yes?

Devotee : Does Lord Caitanya advent himself always a bit after Krsna's lila in the material world?

Gurudev :He doesn’t advent himself any other time.

Devotee : So every time that Krsna appears does Lord Caitanya will also appear afterward?

Gurudev : I know that Lord Caitanya only comes after Krsna, I don’t know For certain that he comes every time when Lord Krsna comes. Not certain about that. I heard that on the contrary that Lord Caitanya's coming is more rare than Lord Krsna coming, but I haven't seen it actually or directly heard it from Prabhupada. Except that I heard directly that he only comes after Lord Krsna comes. But you can see Lord Caintanya now; if he reveals himself to the devotee. But then, you know, in a proclaimed way, you know, when everyone can see him, He only comes after Lord Krsna comes.

Devotee : Since we are followers of Lord Caitanya, at the same time we are worshiping Lord Krsna, Where do we go? When we go back to the spiritual world? Lord Caitanya has His abode His dham there: Krsna has His dham. Where does the Caitanya Bhakta, who is also worshiping Krsna go when he goes back, back to godhead?

Let me take it another stage, you see. Because --that’s very easy to answer-- because you see, in the spiritual sky, in the Golok Vrindavana, Lord Caitanya has his own section of Golok Vrindavana where he along with his associates... it's described that associates of Lord Caitanya generally having --of course separates mothers and other-- other they are generally having male forms. While the associates of Lord Krsna of course --except for the friends-- they are all having female forms like the Gopis have...a lot of Gopis . So, simultaneously, in the spiritual world, those who are the devotees of Lord Caitanya, they’re having the form with Lord Caitanya, and they are also the devotees of Krsna, they are having their forms with Krsna.

Those who are having both relationships... like there may be someone exclusively with Lord Caitanya, although this is very rare; mostly they will have relationships with both, because that was Lord Caitanya’s mood. So they'll have their form simultaneously with Krsna and with Lord Caitanya. So I was talking to one pandit and we were trying to establish the supremacy of chanting Hare Krsna and we were asking that, “Why they --this was in gaur gambhira math-- One himanga shashtry, the head pandit of the Gopal Guru sampradaya, coming down. That he was.... They chant Sri Krsna Caintanya Prabhu Nityananda hare Krsna Hare Rama Sri Radhe Govinda, so we were discussing why they cut up the Hare Krsna Mahamantra, Creating a khanda naam or broken name and created their own mantra which was not evident in any o the Lord Caitanya’s original sashtras and so and so forth. That was a long four-hour discussion, it was a huge battle. But although I was not such a great pandit, but Prabhupad helped us so were able to neutralize his arguments and somehow or other. Because he had a tactic of –I imagine this is standard tactic of pundits-- He had a tactic of changing the subject as soon as he got cornered.

So, just like he first started off by saying , “Well, you say that Hare Krsna is the greatest and that you should only chant Hare Krsna, but then Haridas Thakur, he chanted HareKrsna his whole life, but when he left his body He said “All I want to say is Sri Krsna Caitanya,” and leave my body; so therefore that proves that Sri Krsna Caintanya Is the supreme name. That was, you know, his first thing; so then we said,”Yes, so then why are you not just chanting Sri Krsna Caintanya and why you've added Hare Krsna Hare Rama Sri Radhe Govinda?” Then he changed the subject and said(devotees and Gurudev laugh), “ Since in the spiritual world the followers of Lord Krsna are having their spiritual form as vrindavan vasis, and the followers of Lord Caintanya, they are having their forms as followers of Lord Caintanya. But here in the material world, simultaneously on the altar, we have Radha Govinda and sometimes we're also having Lord Caintanya. So while you're meditating and worshiping the deity, but of course you can only have, --at this time we're limited we're not having our original siddha deha that we can have multiple forms-- So we're having material a consciousness and worshiping. Now, how do you accommodate that simultaneously your original form as Krsna say , in Madhurya rasa in a female form and you are having a Lord Caintanya form? Then how you’ll perform the worship, what will you do? Which...? See, this was how he jumped and proposed that. How you’ll answer? (the devotee says something inaudible about the answer and Gurudev laughs)

Gurudev : When you are preaching in India these things come up. You have to...

When you perform your puja you meditate in your spiritual form, so who’ll worship first? How you’ll do it?

Devotees ans : First, we have to chant Sri Krsna Caitanya prabhu Nityananda Sri Advaita Gadadhara , Sri Vasadi Gaura Bhakta Vrinda. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare/ Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare/

Gurudev : No, but when you're doing the puja you're supposed to meditate. Like if you are doing archana, so who’ll you worship first? How you’ll do it?

Devotee : First we worship Lord Caitanya.

Gurudev : Yes, But he didn’t say who you’ll worship first; I just gave you a clue. The point is that first we worship Lord Caitanya; so then we’ll have to do, you know, obviously we can’t do simultaneously, because that is limited with this consciousness. So then, first we worship Lord Caitanya and then we worship Lord Krsna and then accordingly we meditate. Anyway, these people are really tricky. So these things come up but you can see that how they manipulate these things and actually somehow they miss the boat so... It’s more important to really develop our service attitude. Because these things are revealed; of course we know of them, and we should know about them, and depending on your preaching field, you need to know about them more or less. But we should know something about them. And it’s there for us to know.

And the thing is that they just speculate on all these things all the time, but then in the ultimate issue, they miss the boat. Like they just take a mantra and then divide it up and then we came up with to a three hour discussion on this high topic and them he said, “Well it's very good for marketing. “ I mean there are some people who don’t know Lord Caintanya, they know Radha Govinda; like in Rajasthan, U.P, Delhi. So therefore we’ve thrown in Radha Govinda at the end. But because Lord Caintanya said that Hare Krsna is also…There are lot of Ram Bhaktas in Ayodhya, U.P. and South…so Hare Rama…(devotees laugh)This way, you know , we’ve got little bit for everyone(devotees laugh again)-- Bengal, Orissa, south India they say Hare Krsna... Ayodhya And then when he said that, then we just knew that(devotees and Gurudev laugh) at that point we knew that, pyussshh(Gurudev makes a smashing noise) we smashed him... How can he...? Divided up the holy name for marketing purposes! It's completely unauthorized. So anyway, at the end he admitted, “ Well, you're chanting Hare Krsna; we also chant once in a year-- this is bonafide. We actually appreciate Prabhupada’s preaching Hare Krsna all over the world. bona fide Actually, somewhere along the line, one of our Gurus started this chanting, and so now are just kind of stuck with it. We also chant hare Krsna, other groups they are bogus; they don’t agree with Hare Krsna. We agree Hare Krsna , original name that’s all right. So in the end, he just kind of just backed off. At that point we realized, we couldn’t get much further with him. So in India we have to take a lot of challenges and different people; some of them are from the sincere groups and they follow the principles.

They actually appreciate Prabhupada. They offered us some temples in Puri, if we want to take them over. So they are, they are actually favorable groups to get to, but unfortunately, they have compromised at least on this issue of their marketing approach by changing the holy name. But you find these pundits, they go into the these with such depths, but then in the final analysis of practically following Lord Chaitnaya’s principles as he gave it, somewhere along the line, they just compromise it, for marketing purposes or this or that purpose. And that way Prabhupada, he gave the Bhagavad Gita as it is, he gave the original system as it is, he didn’t change it to suit the changing times. So that way, the original potency is there, and therefore it's having an immediate effect whether practiced in the west, in the east, in the far east and the south east or in the Africa jungles—wherever. If Someone chants this mantra, Sri Krsna Caitanya Prabhu Nityananda Sri Advaita Gadahara Sri Vasadi Guara Bhakta vrinda. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare/Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare, They're getting the transcendental effect immediately without any offenses.

So Prabhupada was kind enough that although he gave us all the knowledge , everything that’s there, these things are in Prabhupad’s books, teachings of Lord Caitanya as well as in the Caitanya Caritramrita. And also, he discussed these things in his private darshans, especially in India. But He stressed the main thing, which is actually to absorb ourselves in the sankirtan mood and to actually develop our service attitude which is actually much more essential for going back to godhead, than to theoretically understand these things. Because when we develop our service attitude and actually in the mood of following in the footsteps of our previous acharyas and service these things are realized. Realized knowledge is much more important than the theoretical knowledge. With theoretical knowledge, one can become confused, but realized knowledge is a permanent asset.

Gurudev : Do you want to go on?

Devotee : You want to take a nap?

Gurudev : One more(question)?

Devotee : Impersonalism... is that a form of, kind of, deviating from serving Krsna? You were saying in the beginning of the lecture that they want the kingdom of God without God.

Well those who want the kingdom of god without God are better than impersonalists, because, you see, the impersonalists, they don’t even want the kingdom of God without God. The people who want the kingdom of God with out God are materialists. They want the material world and they want to enjoy it but they don’t want God. Even the demigods , they respect Krsna, you see, but its like two sides of the coin; in one hand you have the materialists... in one hand you want to have the material world and enjoy it without God. They want to serve in a way, they want to be able to enjoy it as the controller, so those are coming, some as demigods who are favorable to God, and some are demons who are completely offensive to God. But the mayavadis, the impersonalists, they are completely offensive-- and in a way , they want to themselves think that they are God, you see.

To say even without God indicates more of the demigods, because by saying without God, we are indicating that there is God. But the impersonalists, they don’t actually accept that there is any supreme God; they're say that everything is impersonal, that everthing being impersonal, the concept of a supreme person doesn’t come in at all, that every individual soul is as supreme as any other soul. And that any form is illusion. So including the form of God. So therefore they are great offenders, the Lord Caitanya said “ Mayavadi Krsna aparadhi,” they are offenders of Krsna.

So definitely the mayavadis are very offensive to Krsna those who are the who are the Adidas, kevaladvaitas , those who believe that there is simply oneness nothing else, no variety at all, variety is illusion. How variety came, they never can answer, but anyway, those people who are completely simply mayavadis, simply impersonalists, they are very offensive to Krsna. And they get this merging without they desire for it, the demons that Krsna kills they get that. Some get even more than that. But at least they get merging. So being by killed by Krsna, if you get to merge and get impersonal realization, then what is so great about that? Even the demons get it; that means that these impersonalists are on the same level as demons.

So therefore lord Caitanya warned us, “Don’t listen to them,” because if you understand their view point then that can destroy your actual appreciation of Krsna because they are offensive. And if we hear offenses against Krsna then that takes away our devotional assets; so therefore we should always avoid hearing the offenses of Krsna and therefore their preaching is offensive. Their way of preaching is to offend Krsna. Ramanuja Acharya, so he became very upset when he heard that these lessons they are comparing Krsna to some…Krsna is a monkey or something like that..monkey’s ass and they gave some example and then Ramanuja Acharya, was it Ramanuja or was it Madhva? One of them... He was crying when he heard that example then they later they defeated that person that how can you call these things.

They would take the Sanskrit word and divide it up in an awkward way so as to screw out offensive meanings to describe the avatars of Vishnu. To try to derive that they don’t exit or that is just an imagination or something like that, its so offensive. So when the great Acharyas hear these things they would become just become so upset that they would start to cry and then feel separation of the Lord and anger to hear any offensive thing. So this way, we should never hear the lessons of the impersonalists. And they are expert in completely bewildering the people.

There is this one Chinmayananada. He says, “Yes this hare Krsna is very powerful chanting, but no one knows the secret of this power it's not the name Krsna, Rama, hare that is the power, that it’s the little voids between the names. The power is in the void. You cant hear one lecture with them offending Krsna, kicking him in different ways, you know, dozens of times. Their whole thing, they are completely anti-Krsna, anti(the personality of)-Godhead. Therefore, one should completely avoid them, (inaudible) avoidance. Unless one is powerful enough to defeat them one should avoid them. Sometimes, we say I just wanted to hear a sadhu. I’ll just hear a sadhu and they and they get completely bewildered that they can't fix their mind on Krsna anymore. Rajnish is own form of Mayavadi, they are the same everything.

One life member was driving me from the airport, Manipur somewhere. And then they had a tape of Rajnish and they played it, I couldn’t believe it. He was describing how you are trying to make spiritual progress, you are going up, you are going up and you are going up, from the material world and into the spiritual world, but then you get half way there and then some attachments are keeping you and then you don’t have enough to get all the way in there, and then you are floating in limbo and then you are not in the material world, you are not in the spiritual world, and you're lost, you're lost, lost, lost... What to do? Then I come. (devotees and Gurudev Laugh)

I firmly he’ll bring you back to the material world. He had a tape of multimedia voice or something ..and you know in the back ground. And you can see the people they don’t want to get lost, they are in limbo so then he keeps them firmly in the material world. So they hear these mayawadi’s and they get frightened, so loose their courage to actually make any progress in spiritual life. So you have to be very careful, These mayavadi’s; they are definitely offenders of Krsna. They may have their own transcendental understanding and we may respect them as transcendental there are some sincere ones but even the sincere ones generally cant help but offend Krsna in various ways.

So even though it might be slightly helpful for materialists to get out of gross material attraction, but it's detrimental for devotees and those people they are not able to actually go back to the spiritual world; therefore even if a materialist gets some aid just to get out of.. from mayavadi hearing this to get out of material gross attachment as soon as possible should get out of the clutches of mayavadis and come forward to Bhakti yoga, where they can actually understand the complete actual truth and their vision is always just on one angle doesn’t give a complete view.

Ques : Is that the last snare of Maya?

Well, no. Its one of the last snares.. Sahjyaism is actually… more like the last snare. Sahjyaism is more dangerous than impersonalism for devotes. It's harder to recognize the difference between sahjyaism and real devotion. Impersonalism is pretty cut and dry, I mean, they just, you know, they don’t believe it. All quality and personality is very cut and dry, the line is very sharp. But in Sahjyaism where they seem to have a quality of a devotee, but actually, there are some subtle offenses to real devotees; they think that they are already an associate of God even though they haven't achieved that position. and thus they are speaking as in a associate or as an authority, when actually they become offenders of real devotees and they are not presenting the thing as it is. Therefore, they miss the whole..they are not able to actually go back to godhead from that platform and they are guilty of other type of offenses.

So Rasabhas and vaishanav aparadh. They think directly that they are Radha, they think that they are Nanada Maharaj, they think that they are some eternal associate, even though before they’ve achieved that position. They cant achieve that position of being the direct associates and they couldn’t achieve the position of being the assistant of the assistant of the assistant. But they directly already imagine that they are on that level so it appears very attractive, it seems that they are very advanced devotees but its all in the mental platform and because of that, because its all superimposed by their mind and that its based on these false assumptions so its actually more dangerous. Because its harder for a devotee to recognize, they seem to be devotees, they worship Krsna,. So actually what it is, is Sahjyaism is that you try to enjoy Krsna, bhakti means that you surrender to Krsna and he enjoys you, enjoys your service, you offer the service and that service is enjoyed by Krsna and you feel the transcendental bliss from within. But sahjya means that, that person wants to enjoy Krsna’s, he wants to enjoy the ecstasy with Krsna so ..it's not a service mood, it's an “enjoy'' mood.

So one gives up the service and immediately tries to go into the pastimes of Krsna and think about Radha Krsna and think about different pastimes to enjoy them, so rather than offering service to Krsna and to be enjoyed by Krsna one takes over the same enjoying attitude, just like a person in the material world likes to enjoy sex life, enjoy intoxication, enjoy meat eating or gambling. They want to enjoy Krsna’s pastimes; so rather than being accepted in Krsna’s pastimes there’s a humble candidate being accepted that actually tasting it in the real mood of spiritual life which is to be enjoyed by Krsna. Like to crash the gate with their materialistic mind and then enjoy these pastimes and they do it just by manipulating. And because there's some bliss there, sometimes they are actually able to get some kind of spiritual sensation mixed with their mental emotional sensations and it creates a very confused state; actually, very hard for neophytes to distinguish the difference. Kanishta adhikaris are genrally completely overwhelmed by by sahjyas. So, in one way, that’s actually more dangerous than impersonalism, because both of them are fatal type of offensive against real devotional service.

Ques : Sometimes the neophytes are in an enjoying mood, and if that's not checked , could they develop the Sahajiya tendencies?

Gurudev : Could.. They could. They can either develop the enjoying mood, or develop back into the material world, and directly try to enjoy their senses. Or the other way, what happens is that, from that enjoying mood, its easy to jump over to trying to enjoy Krsna. Say there's a devotee who has an enjoying mood and what happens in India sahjya would say that…the real thing is that, the real devotees would say that we should surrender, be the servant of the servant, surrender your false ego, perform you service, in a surrendered mood. And then naturally by spontaneous advancement in devotional service real appreciation of Krishna’s qualities,real ecstasy and real spontaneous anuraga Bhakti comes in the heart. But you don’t want to wait. It doesn’t actually take very much time, but it means that one has to actually change one’s mentality from an enjoying mood to a service attitude, prema bhaav. So when one still thinks that .. I am a great devotee, I am a really advanced or I am you know..But the way they just carry over the same false ego into their spiritual life; those people, they will call you over and say, “I have something to tell you, that even your guru didn’t know.” They say “I have something to tell you that even your guru didn't know,” This is how they try to attract the minds.

Some of these gurus try to steal…they stole away a couple of Prabhupada disciples and then in that way. “I have something to tell you, that your guru did not tell you.” So, that way, it was like a type of prostitution, its like they put the (inaudible), that you know they try to, what do you call..lay a number on you or something..So then if you agree, then immediately you are incurring guru aparadh, you are cut off from your guru. But then they tell you that they actually have an effect in a technical spiritual you have to actually cut off the real root and then they can transplant another root. So the first thing is that they set you up and if you’ve agreed hear from them, then you are immediately guilty of guru aparad. That is agreed to hear means that you are doubting subtly or grossly that your guru actually hasn’t told you something when the guru has told you everything you need to know. So they tried to do the same thing on me and I just denied..No Prabhupad told me everything I need to know. No, no there is something he didn’t tell you…no no he told me everything gopi bhav, Krsna, Caitanya Caritramrta, everything we need to know is said. No no but there’s other things you know….Hare Krsna..I'm sorry I gotta go. But there were people that didn’t go, they waited to hear. And then they left; and those people were told , ''you are so advanced I can see your Rasa now; you are a peacock in Vrindavan and these devotees, I don’t want to mention names, because if they come back in the future... of course, they are out of the movement now for ten years, but pumping gas and other things. But in case they come back, I don’t want to embarrass them by mentioning their names. Some devotees walked in their rooms and saw that these devotees --that at that time they were apparently in Iskcon--, (Gurudev imitates a peacock flapping its wings)…And the devotee- “What is going on? What is Maharaj doing? He had his tape on and he is, you know, flapping…and then he looks and sees that the person just walked in and says, “Never tell anyone what you just saw!” “Sure maharaj.” It was about ten years ago that this happened. And then, “ Maharaj but then what were you doing?” So, finally he said, “ I’ll tell you if you don’t tell anybody..I met this guru in India and he told me that in my Rasa, I am a peacock in Vrindavan; so I was just practicing.” It's a real story.

That person of course, later on , in spite of being a peacock in Vrindavan and hearing all this pollutions from bogus sahjya gurus or from different type of Sahjyas instructions, they, you know, in spite of supposedly already being in their original rasa, how they start fall down and start pumping gas. This shows that they are getting into all kind of illicit activity. This is all just, you know, on the mental platform.

Actually when a devotee reaches that stage, these things are revealed by the guru either through dream or whatever meditation or if he is personally present. But one actually has to be on that platform. It's not just like one mentally thinks, “Now I am so and so.” In fact, Prabhupada warned us that lot of times lusty devotees immediately start thinking, “I am a gopi or something I am the queen of Vrindavan and then they start to…it's not that its their actual Rasa, it's because they are lusty. So they translate that into.. immediately they think that this is my Rasa and try to reach Krsna in this way. But one has to completely cool down all the material desires and lusts by translating them into service attitude and then automatically one actually develops one’s real spiritual relationship with Krsna becomes revealed and that’s confirmed by the spiritual master. it's not something that one just imposes. This happened to a new Bhakta in Mayapur and he couldn’t make it, he just couldn’t make it; it was too austere in the temple or something like that in Mayapur, the main thing they come in they think that I am now during the ashram there is no one, there never will be anyone as advanced as I am..I am really…I mean the ashram should open the door and think that “here I am”..you know, and then you know Bhakta shyamarupa whatever you know…or some you know Bhakta Pradeep…and you know he doesn’t like that he has to chant sixteen rounds, he has to do this, and he thinks, “Oh my goodness! They didn’t recognize me as Mahapurush..I juts gave up my job in the post office and I have come here and now they haven't even recognized me that I am a Mahapurush! I mean I saw Krsna in the dream..can't they understand that I am already a liberated soul or something. And then sometimes they don’t make it; before we can see that they are on this particular platform.

We know how to deal with it, we know they are on that particular trip, but then they go to Vrindavan or something and they go to some Baba who says, “Oh yes! You are a peacock or you are a one of the tortoises in Radha kund and then they either start to swim or float, or they go into the whole thing for the next three years, until they realize that they are not actually getting any spiritual bliss; that it's all in their mind, or just you know externally flapping, and then you know, usually by that time they have committed so many offenses and they become so bewildered that they just as the babaji they just start falling down with the widows in vrindavan or they go off and then just join the material world again or they get into some kind of a weird trip.

So this type of apasampradayas BhaktiVinod thakur was continuously…Bhakti Siddhanta thakur was continuously..and Prabhupad of course, in the west, he had more mayavadis to deal with, but still he had to always continuously be fighting because that was his main danger. He was always afraid that these type of Sahjiyas and then the Mayaadi's would somehow get into our movement. In New York there was one mayavadi Sanyasi came into the temple, he was so upset!There was a time when there was attack by mayavadi’s, our society has to fight out against that. Then once even the Sahjiyas tried to enter into the society.

These ate the main things that Acharyas and they Sanyasis always had to keep an eye out for. That the two sides, they always had tried to move in and tried to spoil real Bhakti. But its very complicated in a generally speaking like this…you are bringing it up; its becoming a topic. But its so complicated for the new Bhaktas and neophytes they are not going to be able to understand. It’s a very complex issue…it’s a very subtle issue and I am explaining because you are asking, but I hope it doesn’t confuse anyone. Because it's not that simple a thing, its common denominator is very simple; one is the enjoying mood, both are enjoying mood. One wants to merge, one wants to immediately enter the pastimes. And real Bhakti is change of heart, where one comes in with a service attitude. The common denominator is very simple but in practical multifarious applications the various kind of forms it takes....Because there is only one type of pure bhakti; you see, Ramanuja sampradaya, Madhva, Nimbarka, Vishnu swami and then chaitnaya's the basic mood is slightly only different. One is in service attitude in Dasya raasa, one may be in Madhurya raasa, one may in vatsalya raasa, but the service attitude is consistent in all. When you get into the apasampraday’s ,Awul Bawul, Kottabaji Nara Nari, Gauranga Nagari and Kotta Nishi…and and now we have a new kind that are coming up-- Drug Sahjiyas.. Another fourteen can bee added to the list, I don’t know what name to give that in Sanskrit, but Awul..Bawul…whether they would be called drug bowls or what..?But...

Devotee : (inaudible)

Gurudev : Eh?

Gurudev : Something like that.

(Gurudev continues lecture)So the point is you know, these sahjiyas have so many varieties, so when we go into how many type of varieties, but basically it’s the same type of enjoying mood, trying to jump over into the spiritual world, like pole vaulting, using some kind of material mentality. When actually one just takes the mood of surrender and service then Krsna picks you up, there is no other way, you have to be picked up. You cant crash the gate, you cant merge in, there is no other way. But Krsna doesn't let you wait very long. In fact even while you open and you surrender that way, already the link is there. And Krsna becomes so grateful and then one actually then gets pure devotional service; it's not even long in coming. But these people, they try to just..without going through the authorized process..by neglecting real gurus, by neglecting their real Acharya, they try to concoct their own way. Then they get entangled in the sahjyaism and mayawadism.

We have to be careful and if there is ever any doubt, one should discuss with the authorized devotees who have trained through Srila Prabhupad, through the parampara system who know about these things. That if there is any doubt then someone is becoming a contaminated by some type of sahjiya ideas, or some kind of mayawadi ideas, they are not able to reach them and they have doubts, they should be helped as soon as possible, because the further one gets into these concepts, the more that one can become just completely lost from devotional service. It may take going back to an amoeba and working your way up to actually get rid of those conceptions. Caintanya Caritramta said that one offends a real guru, he may take one crore of lifetimes of Brahma to, or one kalpa or one crore days of Brahma before he can actually be qualified again to accept a real Guru. It's so polluting that once this kind of view is taken, it's very hard to again get a proper view point on devotional service. So before one gets into it, they should be saved. Hare Krsna.